posted 08-19-2009 08:14 PM            

I do not remember much about it from the academy. I do remember that you tell them somthing like this--"I know you stole in your life--lets face it --we all did----when i ask you if you ever stole I want you to tell me no then think about the times that you stole."

I like to think about polygraph in a laymens, common sense, way sometimes and I say to myself---you are kind of telling them by explaining this test that these are controls right? Aren't you also telling them in a way that reacting to these would be good for the test opposed to reacting to the R questions?

also

What do you use for a DLT---a Utah? An Air Force? or doesn't it matter?

posted 08-19-2009 08:41 PM            

Click on this for the how-to:
http://truth.boisestate.edu:16080/eyesonly/HontsPublications/Raskin&Honts(2002)CQTch.pdf

posted 08-20-2009 08:05 AM            

Call me if the provided material does not answer all of your questions.

posted 10-20-2009 02:32 PM            

I have used it in pre-employment settings and PCSOT. I really like not setting the PLCs and on the very first test I was extremely confident in my opinion and interrogation after administering this test.

posted 10-20-2009 03:04 PM            

From my understanding, the biggest concern with it when you boil all fears down is the fear that it will invite countermeasures. That does seem logical, however, I don't believe we have any research yet that proves that and if we do, would someone point it out to me, I'd love to read it.

------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator

Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com

posted 10-20-2009 03:30 PM            

Donna, I will take your word for it. Ben--on the other hand--I don't listen to much of what he has to say.

Just kidding Ben. I hope to see your class at a seminar soon.

posted 10-21-2009 04:40 AM            

quote:

---

It allows me as the examiner to do less manipulating and more observation.

---

Wow. That is an important statement, that cuts right to the core of the scientific issue.

If we want to be taken seriously by the court or scientific community, then we have to improve our ability to think of the polygraph as something more an interrogation prop - as a test. Of course we'll interrogate in the posttest if necessary, but until then we are there to observed, gather data, and run the test.

The empirical problem is that we need something to compare to the reactions to the targets - that's why we use CQs, as a substitute for normative controls. The complication is that We are trying to observe the examinee's authentic reaction (whether deceptive or truthful) while we are manipulating or altering their reactions to the test questions. It is not possible to observe someone's authentic reaction while we are manipulating their reactions. We believe that we can somehow manipulate the examinee's reactions to some of the questions (CQs) without also altering their reactions to the investigation targets. It would be nice if human psychology were so nicely compartmentalized. It would also be nice if everyone would leave their personal and emotional baggage at home every day and not bring it to the workplace. But its prolly not gonna ever be that tidy.

The concern about inviting countermeasures appears to have fact validity. However, face-validity is only a starting place. Experience in the field does not confirm that this will be a problem, and seems rather consistently to refute the concern. Sure somebody, somewhere will attempt to use countermeasures. They do that with PLC exams too. At this point there is no experience or evidence that DLC exams have a more troublesome profile or experience with countermeasures or present any greater vulnerability than PLC exams. In fact, the evidence from scientific studies and field experience seems rather consistently to suggest that they are at least as good or better in terms of accuracy, and present with fewer ethical and empirical complication that hinder our ability to validite our methods and gain legal and scientific recognition.

BTW - Ben has a great dog-and-pony show on the DLST. See it if you can.

.02

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 02-08-2010 10:04 PM         

In 2006 in this formum, Barry C. wrote as well,

quote:

---

Scoring is still the same for a PLCQ and a DLCQ. Use the Utah rules. Breathing is different, but they haven't yet validated a different set of rules for their evaluation. You will get some crazy pneumos on a DLCQ. If you looked at them as you would on a PLCQ, you'd suspect CMs, and that is one of the drawbacks

---

My question: Have any rules by DACA been established relating to the pneumo's being scored differently in a DLCQ test vs a PLCQT ?

posted 02-09-2010 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

My question: Have any rules by DACA been established relating to the pneumo's being scored differently in a DLCQ test vs a PLCQT ?

---

Bob:

I think you might be painting yourself into an impossible and unsatisfying corner with they way you are asking your question.

You are unlikely to find anyone at this forum who is authorized, willing, or capable of speaking for DACA, and that sounds like what you want.

If you ask a broader question you might get more useful information (just like searching online.

For example: what do we know about the differences in scoring DLCs and PLCs? (rather broad, I know)

Or: what do we know about how DACA scores DLCs and PLCs'? (less broad, but invites wisdom from more people)

But, If you are interested only in DACA's rules, then you may have asked the question in the best way. But you might have to either be patient, or ask them directly - but people not authorized to speak for them (probably most people within and outside DACA) will be unhelpful to the task providing any information to help answer your question. And, if you require assertive or definitive answers about DACA's rules, and get none, then you will be unable to anything or make any use of any other wisdom or information.

Of course, if all we require is a definitive answer, and the more we require a definitive answer, then the more vulnerable we become to fall prey to someone who comes along to sell us an answer. (Kind like voice stress: people desperately want to buy cheap science and be told its great for reasons they cannot understand - so someone sells it and they buys it.)

Perhaps the best way to get information from DACA is through the anti site - or file an FOIA request yourself. But either way you can read the material yourself and decided first hand what DACA says. This would prevent you from being misled by someone else's misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the material.

I encourage you to ask a broader question and get information from not just DACA (whom I think seem mainly to lurk at this forum - for understandably good reasons). There are others who are not from DACA that might be able to provide you information - Barry and Mark come to mind, but there are others also, like Lou, and others.

But again, if what you want is for someone from DACA to tell you what are their rules - you might have to wait, because they are probably good at following the don't-talk-about-the-fight-club rule.

.02

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 02-09-2010 11:01 AM         

I wasn't really expecting someone speak from DACA per se, but let me try making an adjustment to the question,

Is anyone aware of anything filtering down through DACA relating to the pneumo's being scored differently in a DLCQ test vs a PLCQT ? (and that I don't have to go to Anti-polygraph to get :-)

Bob

posted 02-09-2010 11:30 AM            

Funny you should ask? (about the weather, and the DLC).

Was thinking about running this morning, but it is snowing. Not bad, so I went anyway, which is what I do in Colorado. The temp is about the same, but it feels a little colder here. Which is fine, because you just increase the pace to stay warm, and the air is good at Indiana altitudes.

If you follow Barry's advice you will be fine.

What we know is a collection of wisdom from the available publications, field experience of our own, analysis of what data we have available to us, and some personal conversations with the good folks from DACA, to the degree they are able to do that.

Be prepared to observe funny looking pneumo activity at the CQs using DLCs. This seems like it might be more likely if you over-program your DLC instructions.

The instructions, as we have been teaching them are to

1. intruduce the topic and minimize or normalize it ("this is something that everyone has done...")

2. solicite the examinee's endorsement that they have done it.

3. advise the examinee that he is not required to tell you about the incident

4. instruct the examinee to think about and remember the incident while answering "no," and ensure he is lying while answering the question

What we see is that if you give someone paint-by-numbers instructions like this you might see delayed answers and interesting pneumograph patterns. Especially if you are testing someone with a linear thinking style, who understands only concrete paint-by-numbers instructions. So don't do it in a paint-by-numbers way.

Last week I met a police examiner in California, who is a former Marine and NCIS investigator and very familiar with the TES/DLST and DLCs. He told me that his procedure is to simply introduce and normalize the topic, solicit the examinee's endorsement that he has done it (behavior described by DLC), and tell the person to answer "no." The rest of the cognitive activity, which is thought to be or described as a form of cognitive dissonance, will take care of itself without paint-by-numbers instructions.

When scoring DLCs, you should ignore a pneumo reaction at a DLC if it looks TGTBT, and give - scores to obvious and strong reactions to RQs. So you effectively get 0 or - only (not +) in the pneumo, when scoring DLC exams.

As always,

Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 02-10-2010 10:34 AM            

In Volume 33, Number 3 (2004) of the APA Journal, Paul M. Menges (of DACA) wrote a very detailed history and methodology of the DLC test. In it he describes and explains on page 138 & 139 the pneumograph tracing differences that you are seeking. His article is worth reading if you are contemplating the use of the DLC. This is about as close as you will get to a DACA response on the analysis of the pneumographs when evaluating TDA on a DLC.
Hope this helps.

posted 02-10-2010 01:03 PM         

Thanks to ya both, the scoring based on TGTBT(0, -1) is what I was wanting to know.

And, thanks to you, Skip, as well. I'll pull that volume out and refresh myself.

After reviewing Kleiner's Handbook on the topic- I decided to go with the PLCGT again(staying in my comfort zone at the moment:-)